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"The mankind needs the Earth, but the Earth doesn't need the mankind. The present shows the reality... Everything is in a system."
"Personally, it's not God that I don't like, but Their unbearable fan club."
Márcio Luiz F. Albuquerque
Also if you look around hard enough on the internet you will find that many of the largest brown bears (kodiak bears) have bones that are larger than the largest cave bear specimens found to date. So, the cave bear is another animal that is highly blown out of proportion when it comes to size estimates.
My source for this 4' cave bear shoulder height is a .pdf I obtained that documents the actual museum specimen height of the animals, not bogus estimates.
This link: [link] shows a replica of a skeleton with 10' in upright position... with this, I think that 4' would be underestimate the height of a Ursus spelaeus…
I would be thankful, if possible, that you passed to me links with these information about the brown bear and cave bear…
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"The mankind needs the Earth, but the Earth doesn't need the mankind. The present shows the reality... Everything is in a system."
"Personally, it's not God that I don't like, but Their unbearable fan club."
Márcio Luiz F. Albuquerque
And also, in case you were going to throw a "scale" picture at me, pictures that show this bear scaled alongside other bears are always depicting an "average" sized generic bear next to the "largest" specimens of U. spelaeus, which is not really a good or fair comparison. And also, some of the scaled images floating around are made by fanatics who believe all the mumbo jumbo about these bears weighing in over 1 ton, and being 12 feet tall, and I bet they even skewer the sizes to make them seem even more massive.
If I need to I will also dig up some of the most recent studies that have been done on U. spelaeus which conclusively show that early estimates of it's weight were highly overblown, and that this animal really was only marginally heavier than modern day brown bears, and "only" (still huge though) grew about the size of a modern kodiak bear.
I'm not saying it was a small bear, I'm just saying it wasn't the titan that early (but unaccurate) studies once showed it to be.
Arctodus simus on the other hand, is still claimed at being the largest bear of all time, and even modern studies are estimating its weight to be around 2,000 lbs. Since I'm no scientist, I could be blatantly wrong about Arctodus, because only myself and 1 other paleo-artist that I know of have openly stated our doubts about it's weight. But even scientific studies show that the largest specimens of U. spelaeus were not heavier than a typical kodiak bear in weight.
[link]
Here is my source for U. spelaeus 4' shoulder height. (1.22 meters)
And don't underestimate a 4' quadraped shoulder height. If you think it sounds small, it might be because your used to reading about overblown animal proportions. I'm sure if you saw a big 4' shouldered bear walking alongside you you would swear it weighed a ton, because a 4' shouldered bear can rear up to a staggering height on two legs. (4' of rear leg, and at least 5 or more feet of body and neck).... so now does the 4' shoulder height sound a bit more reasonable?
I just need to address a few other things that I didn't catch when I read your response the first time.
"with this [link] , I think that 4' would be underestimate the height of a Ursus spelaeus…"
there are two things things wrong with that... 1 is the assumption that 4' is my own, or a scientists "estimate" of shoulder height (it's not an estimate, it's the actual measurement of an adult museum specimen, the angellis.net .pdfs do not display an estimate unless they show a question mark trailing the numbers, if there is no question mark, than it was not an estimate, it was an actual measurement taken). And 2nd, I think you need to look more closely at the picture you showed me as evidence that the bear didn't have a 4' quadrapedal shoulder height.... Look at how short the legs are, and how long the torso is. Most of that height is coming from its long body, and those legs look quite stubby, so again, I see no indication that this animal had a shoulder height that was taller than 4'... If your still not convinced, and you want me to do one of those analytical breakdowns with a grid and a scale chart or something I can do that for you in photoshop and I promise I won't skewer the results just to make me look smart lol, I would do it fairly and unbiased.
"The normal range of physical dimensions for a brown bear is a head-and-body length of 1.7 to 2.8 m (5.6 to 9.2 feet) and a shoulder height 90 to 150 cm (35 to 59 inches)"
That is an excerpt from the wikipedia brown bear page (which even though it is open source, a lot of pages are as good as a real encyclopedia)... I just wanted to show you that the average shoulder height of a brown bear actually does round out to be about 4' (1.2 meters), because you also gave the implication that 4' shoulder heights for a brown bear "didn't sound right" either.
The 90 cm - 150 cm shoulder height range probably encompasses all 3 U. arctos subspecies because the page speaks collectively for the group. From reading studies, I'm under the impression that brown bears weren't quite as heavily built as cave bears so to me, It isn't a far stretch to picture a thick boned, long bodied 120 cm Cave bear weighing as much as a 150 cm Kodiak bear
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